The 2020 USA POTUS election, the civil war, and the world war

The 2020 USA POTUS election, the civil war, and the world war
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Wanted to provide this outlet for those anxious to move beyond discussion of Democrat Party politics and the party’s ongoing POTUS nomination process. That contest continues apace and there is surely room for much more comment regarding it. But that is intramural stuff on the other thread.

This thread is about Republican vs. Democrat, Trump vs. Democrat, and the November 2020 general election. If you dislike Republicans, or if you do not care for Democrat policies, please feel free to vent right here.

This thread is also available for comment regarding America’s currently existing cold civil war, which is only one facet of a larger world war revolving around the same issue. I refer to the concept laid out by President Trump yesterday in his UN speech, that of globalism vs. patriotism. I can offer one or two examples beyond these shores:

In the UK three years ago there was a focused election regarding Brexit. Leave won by a significant margin. But the UK remains nevertheless in the EU. They finally got rid of remainer PM May. But Boris has his hands full as the liberal elite remainers are doing everything possible to thwart the will of the people and overcome the outcome of that election. How this all unfolds in the upcoming six weeks will be a harbinger, in my view, of how things could transpire for us next year in the USA.

In Canada, a very liberal PM is up for re-election next month. Trudeau is a controversial figure personally, and also from the standpoint of his policy initiatives, e.g., his carbon tax and the SMC Lavalin scandal. I do not know whether or not Conservative leader Scheer can defeat Trudeau. This I am watching very closely, seeing it as yet another harbinger.

There is also war action in Italy and (I think) in Poland.

Back in the USA, Trump and his followers are clearly uncomfortable with the worldwide push for globalism. We do not like it or want it. We enshrine, instead, The Constitution of the United States of America and view it as controlling and paramount. Democrats generally are more accepting of, more open to, the globalist approach. This fundamental difference of opinion leads to all manner of political conflict.

Finally, notice I specified “Trump’s followers” and NOT Republicans. As we just witnessed in the UK, when Boris lost his parliamentary majority with twenty of his Tory members crossing over to Labor, so here in the USA as well.

I do not know how many. But some Republican elites are prepared and anxious to betray Trump and join with Democrats to defeat his policies. Such squishy, unreliable, Republicans make the political drama just that much more interesting.:wink:

I can now provide you names. There are precisely eleven Democrat members of the Senate masquerading as Republicans. They are:

Lamar Alexander (Tenn.),
Roy Blunt (Mo.),
Susan Collins (Maine),
Mike Lee (Utah),
Jerry Moran (Kansas),
Lisa Murkowski (Alaska),
Rand Paul (Ky.),
Rob Portman (Ohio),
Mitt Romney (Utah),
Pat Toomey (Pa.),
Roger Wicker] (Miss.)

These clowns, all of whom call themselves “Republicans”, just voted against funds for the wall, a measure which has overwhelming support among REAL Republicans.

There is nothing whatsoever dishonorable about being a Democrat. Why will these eleven Senators, globalists all, not own up to their true party allegiance?

They are traitors, but worst of all is that old, jealous, bitter loser, Mitt Romney.

You leave out “Republican vs. Trump”, “Sane Voter vs. Trump”, and “Rule of Law vs. Trump” . Its ok though. It’s probably accurate no Republican voter opposition. Maybe the White Nationalists are those “REAL” Republicans you refer to.

Sane people already left the party permanently when the alt-right components were tolerated rather than ejected.

You seem pretty emotional. There’s not much reason for anyone to vent on events they have no direct control over. Its funny you think representatives voting how their constituents that elected them want for once rather than continuing to be spineless is being traitors. Party Platform <> daily twitter tirade. You are correct, it is unprecedented the number of Republican reps “retiring” from politics this cycle.

The swing states (like maybe TX way ahead of schedule, it appears!) is all that matters in a general election. The rest of the voters are just noise.

This is the opposite of the facts. Party control was moved away from local / elected to the appointed “party elite” (its not strictly one or another, I’m only saying there was a large shift in the control) after the 2012 cycle, evidenced by large changes to the nominating process in 2016 and other actions. Yes, incidentally Romney was responsible for the push for those changes and partly responsible for the results. The “party elite” are currently fully behind whichever way the wind blows each day on new “policy”. That’s why individual members at no external risk of losing reelection are “retiring”.

Except where congressional oversight is concerned.

'- 2012 Republican State Delegate

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It’s interesting that you are able to make this distinction in your OP, but you’re unable to follow the exact same logic when you say:

Have you considered that perhaps these senators are the only Republicans left, while everyone else in the senate is actually a Trump follower masquerading as Republican?

Let’s not forget that Trump himself was a Democrat before he was a Republican, and he has never given a shit about anything or anyone except himself. I do not believe that he ever had his own position on any issue. He is guided by what he sees on the teevee, and the only thing he sees is Fox Opinion.

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Well, it is funny - scary funny. Representatives are not supposed to vote how their constituents want. They’re suppose to vote for what they deem the best option, regardless of what their constituents want. Career politicians have made those careers by pandering to their constitutent’s whims as a means of buying the votes that keep them in office, rather than voting based on what they feel is best for the country as a whole.

In fact, the biggest problems today is the fallacy that your representatives are supposed to do your bidding. THAT is what creates such deep divides we see today, because it only results in “mob rule” where a large segment of the population will always feel as though they are not being represented. That simply isnt how our government was designed to function.

The only traitors are those actively working against our duly elected officials. Being bitter 'cause things arent being done the way you want them done is one thing, you arent required to be happy about it. But trying to force your way through anyways is treason, a good old fashioned coup de’etat, and is what will cause the downfall of the United States. No matter how hellbent you are on the belief that your way is actually right, it’s wrong.

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You point out the real problem. They’re not supposed to be a rubber stamp or constantly vote as a bloc.

They are supposed to vote what’s the best option, which will be informed mainly on the platforms they run on with some “evolved” understandings on things they used to be completely wrong on but they have learned new information.

Additionally, the second part is the oath of office, which should have NO attachment or allegiance to their own platform or party.
There’s of courses issues with all of this that is not unique to a single party affiliation.

Not sure where the rest of your reply was going. Is your intent to point out the current president’s actions here? Or is that unintentional?
It’s Congress’s mandate to provide oversight of the executive branch, as well as legislation and many budgetary functions. It’s not the Executive’s function to declare a fake emergency because Congress specifically addressed and declined what the Executive demanded for political points rather than an emergency too urgent and fast moving for Congress to address. It’s also not the Executive’s function to tell US-born (which is immaterial…) elected officials to “go back to [countries] where they came from” because their skin is a different color or to state that the duly elected Speaker of the House is not the speaker anymore because the Executive doesn’t like it. You’re right that not cooperating with Congress’s oversight and actively working against our duly elected officials is not part of the job description.

If routine oversight requests are routinely stonewalled, Congress has no other options than to open a formal inquiry to gather more information to support or discredit any allegations of misconduct. There need not be a smoking gun. There just needs to be smoke (which there has been much), the point of the process is to investigate whether there is a gun or not.

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Swampers of all persuasions (Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Independent) hate Trump. He is the monkey wrench in the gears of the money sucking machine that has become government, sadly to say.

So true. My concern on the impeachment thing is whether or not Trump will receive enough support in the Senate to avoid removal from office. There are so many RINOs there. They might as well be Democrats and could easily end up voting with the Democrats.

I hope once she is divorced that Sarah runs for Senate in AK. That RINO they have now, MurCOWski, is a horror. And that bitter old loser from Utah, Romney, did not become MA governor by being a conservative. You can take the boy out of Massachusetts, but you cannot take the Massachusetts out of the boy.

Then we have RINO Ryan, former House speaker, coming out against Trump. Ryan is another loser. When he handed the gavel to Nancy it was one Democrat handing the gavel to another. Is it any wonder I left the Republican party years ago and have never looked back. What a bunch of frightened, scaredy cat, wimps.

I thought it was funny to see the quotes from senior politicians saying things about how important (or not) it was to impeach. Taken from the Trump and Bill Clinton media circuses, never let it be said politicians are consistent!

SEN. CHARLES E. SCHUMER, D-N.Y.. Then (as a House member): “It is time we move forward, and not have the Congress and the American people endure a specter of what could be a yearlong focus on a tawdry but not impeachable affair.”— Oct. 6, 1998

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Interesting topic, deserving of more time than I will commit to today. Just a few points… I’ll add more later.

  • Making up and using derogatory names for people is inappropriate. It is a cheap way to sway people who are challenged by things intellectual / don’t have higher levels of critical thinking. It removes the human element (respecting one another no matter what their beliefs). Everyone here, please consider not using derogatory terms in lieu of respectful titles / categories.

  • From limited reading I’ve done, USA, UK and France have all had significant election influence from Russia. It seems to me that Russia has spent WAY less money and obtained FAR greater results in disrupting Western / Democratic countries than corresponding spending on military. This is like a HUGE WOW that few seem to be looking at very deeply. People in challenging situations (obsolete job skills, not keeping up with the Jones’, lack of health insurance, lack of job growth, etc) can easily be swayed. It seems that Russia has latched on to this and taken advantage of it.

  • Trump has dramatically changed the office of president. Unbelievably so. I have a hard time believing that republicans in Congress REALLY support the changes he’s made (Rude and inappropriate Tweets in lieu of more traditional business practices, tariffs (Republicans are traditionally free traders), mocking handicapped people, deriding people from certain less-developed countries, etc. He has not shown a caring philosophy. Is this REALLY who people want to support? I think his support comes from fear, political pressure and a lack of critical thinking about his actions.

  • Globalism will happen. It is seriously tough for the brake drum manufacturing worker in Alabama who doesn’t have the tools to grow into a robotic technician when his job disappears. Taxing brake drum imports is probably not the answer. Developing a highly skilled US workforce IS. The brake drum worker has a very hard time understanding how this all works. So, he/she is an easy candidate for being suaded to the tariff / populist view. Few will consider how the changes Trump has made dramatically reduced the support for these folks – reduced health care, reduced funding for Planned Parenthood, reduced SNAP benefits… have occupational retraining funds been cut? (I honestly don’t know) (Sub-bullet here – if you want to increase the number of abortions in the US, be sure to decrease Planned Parenthood funding. The real intent of defunding PP is to hurt lower income and minority citizens.)

  • I’ve used “Trump” too often here. He is a symptom, not the cause. All of this was in place ahead of him – he just took advantage of it and got elected. That said, I think he is doing the country a great disservice in normalizing hate speech and anti-minority / immigrant views. This will be a terrible legacy for him and our country. And it will take a long time and a lot of hard work to reverse. It is incredibly asymmetric in terms of creating and then trying to go back. This is a key element to Russia’s effectiveness in this area. Putin must be giddy as a kid at a birthday party. He’s been unbelievably successful at messing us up.

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In what ways?

Only over the dead bodies of tens of millions of Americans who believe in The Constitution of the United States of America and who refuse to be governed, or in any manner controlled, by foreigners.

Good luck with your globalism. We will fight for our country. And we are WELL armed.

Globalism sucks.

How do you see the Constitution going against brake drums being made in China? To me, free trade among countries is a large part of globalism. Most economists see free trade as a benefit to both parties.

When you say that globalism sucks, what are you referring to?

Please don’t get mad now… I’m really trying to understand. You wrote: “Over the dead bodies of tens of millions of Americans”… Does that sort of language help the open dialogue that we need in order to resolve issues among disagreeing parties? Or, does it fire up support from a displaced brake drum manufacturer who doesn’t study economics and may not have critical thinking skills. It is quite a strong statement regarding, what I THINK we are talking about – free trade. International trade has been expanding… basically… forever (although at a faster pace in the last 50 years). Are you against making brake drums in China?

(Forgive me for using brake drums all the time. To me, it is emblematic of the shift to manufacturing in China. Electronics is probably a better example. I hope the brake drum language doesn’t derail the debate)

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That might be a wee bit over-dramatic. It’s different philosophies, both “valid”. But globalism is only inevitable when you refuse to leave the path that leads to globalism. Which is most of the problem right now - some people are hellbent on achieving that endgame, and thus consider any attempt otherwise to be “treason”.

Globalism is also the cause of virtually all the problems everyone (all sides) complain about. When businesses gain access to billions of new customers, they’re going to be vastly more profitable to no benefit of Random Joe in Anytown, USA. And when entering a global economy with the top economic standards, those standard are going to erode until reaching a new equilibrium point for the new global economy. These arent issues caused by evil corporations and corrupt greed, they are completely foreseeable consequences that should’ve been obvious the minute such a global agenda was first concocted. If you want to believe in the concept, that’s fine, but you also need to accept the suffering that comes with it. That’s where I have a problem - instead of accepting the inevitable pain that comes with such an economic plan, it’s become a constant search for scapegoats to villanize for the consequences of their own making.

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I might have mentioned, as well, that their deep desire for the globalist approach is the REAL reason liberal globalists want to confiscate our guns. Of course all the shootings and killings by nut cases those same liberals liberated from insane asylums, where such people belong, back in the 1950’s and 1960’s is the excuse they now use for wanting to take our firearms.

But as the Constitution provides, the real reason most of us are armed is to defend our freedom and liberty against all enemies thereof, BOTH foreign and DOMESTIC! And we will.

We control the overwhelming majority of America’s land area. If we must re-take the cities, in defense of our Constitution, we are more than prepared and ready to do so. Liberal globalists be on notice. We will not submit without a fight you cannot win. The current cold civil war can quickly become a hot one if you press on with the globalist insanity.

Now you’re sounding all crazy conspiracy theorist.

I really have no doubt that most everyone has what they think is our best interest in mind. But rather than accepting that there are different opinions about how things should be done, it’s become “I’m obviously right, and anyone who disagrees has a corrupt secret agenda I must resist at all costs.”

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You are entitled to your opinion. Cannot say for how much longer that will be the case.

I have been around a long time, since before the start of the cold war. My age and memories color my views.

That is the good news for the globalists. People like me are dying off. I will not be around to harass them all that much longer. But so long as I am here I am more than prepared to give 'em hell.

Interesting editorial in today’s Washington Post regarding impeachment:

Washington Post impeachment piece dated afternoon of 9/30

Here is a lift from that piece:

. . the rule of law has been undermined over the past several years by deeply compromised senior officials in the intelligence and law enforcement communities, along with allies in the Obama White House during the period between 2015 and 2017. The long, drawn-out Mueller investigation added to the miasma of false narratives about the president. Now add to that brew both the manifest partisanship of Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam B. Schiff (D-Calif.), the domination of news coverage by elite-media liberals and their #NeverTrump allies-of-convenience (pretending to a conservatism that exists independent of long-held constitutional norms), and any fair-minded political observer and proponent of constitutional order should be on high alert.

The problem is, it’s not a Constitutional issue. So to criticize based on it “going against the Constitution” is a farce, even if it’s plenty worthy of criticism.

What is Constitutional is the President setting and leading international and economic policy. What we see lately is a bunch of appointed officials doing what they’ve always done, or what they feel should be done, regardless of the instructions from their commander in chief. And when called out over it, it’s justified as merely refusing to cater to his “personal” agenda. Ignoring the fact that the “personal” agenda of the President is in fact the agenda of the President, and such appointees serve at the pleasure of the President. It’s rather asinine to criticize, let alone impeach partially due to, the President purging subordinates who refuse to get on board with current policy. Disagree with said policies all you want, but their job is to execute those policies, not sabotage them.

And no, I’m not so much for Trump, as I am against the lynch mob that keeps attacking the office of President. It doesnt matter if you dislike the kind of President he is or the decisions he’s made, you still show respect for the office. That should be something that all Americans hold sacred.

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Guys, to be clear, I welcome here discussion of the cold civil war, as just above. I participated myself and it’s all good. Thank you.

However, included, allowed, and also on topic here is discussion of the world war for and against globalism. There has been a striking development in that world war which I will now ventilate:

Reporting dated today is pointing to consideration by Queen Elizabeth of sacking Boris. For anti-globalists like me, Boris is very nearly as great a hero as Trump. I am SOLIDLY in the Brexit camp and I vigorously oppose the remainers. I well remember Queen Elizabeth’s coronation back in 1953. That was a long time ago. And in all the intervening years nothing of this sort EVER has come even close to emerging.

But the Queen is the ultimate elite. And the British elites, top to bottom, want to ignore all those votes to leave the EU. After all, they are so much smarter and better than mere voters. Why should the votes of the people be controlling!!

Here is your link to this amazing story:

The Queen has ways to destroy Brexit