Why Some Millennials Think The Economy Sucks

[glitch99]

@scripta

I doubt that anyone doing manual or tedious work for money gets much of that sense of accomplishment.

I think lots of such people do get that sense of accomplishment. Plenty of people take pride in their work, no matter how tedious or menial it may seem.

[glitch99]

@Honkinggoose

Imagine a rat that has had to navigate a maze in order to get 10-year-old cheddar cheese. Now, imagine a rat that has been given universal basic kraft cheese slices, one-half inch from it’s nose. Which rat will you bet your life on surviving adversity (which may be disguised as diversity)?

Flip the reward - and I’ll bet more often than not, the ‘rat’ navigating the maze will be more satisfied with his kraft cheese product slice than the ‘rat’ who was just handed the aged cheddar. Unless he sees the second rat get handed the better reward, then frustration starts to drown out the feelings of accomplishment.

[harish7631]

@xerty

As for financial outcomes, poor people often struggle to manage money, and this is one reason why many remain poor despite receiving plentiful government assistance. Merely giving people more money won’t make them better stewards of it, as the study showed.

This reminds me of Abhijit Banerjee’s findings on poverty in the developing world. He and his wife won the Nobel in Economics for their experimental research. There are several YouTube videos with their MIT lectures on the topic.

[scripta]

@glitch99

Unless he sees the second rat get handed the better reward

Are you still talking about rats ? I doubt they’d care.

[jerosen]

@scripta

So, this was a random one-time payment? UBI is supposed to be a regular monthly payment.

This.

The study isn’t really relevant to UBI.

I for one like the idea of UBI since it could replace an inefficient pile of governemtn programs SNAP, TANF, Seciton 8, SSNI, unemployment insurance, etc etc

There is a % of the population that won’t work for good or bad reasons. We can have 12 different ways to help them and police them and judge them or we can just cut everyone a check and not care.

[glitch99]

@jerosen

I for one like the idea of UBI since it could replace an inefficient pile of governemtn programs SNAP, TANF, Seciton 8, SSNI, unemployment insurance, etc etc

I like the idea of rolling all those things into a works program - a guaranteed 8-hr/day job for anyone who wants it. Be it landscaping, copying/filing, janitorial, food service, whatever the local governments have to do (even if it’s sitting in a room waiting patiently all day, if you are too disabled to actually do anything productive). No unemployment, because there’a always a paycheck available. No SNAP, you want food then you just need to work for the day and you can buy your own. Etc, etc. People can make a career of it if they want.

[harish7631]

@jerosen

There is a % of the population that won’t work for good or bad reasons. We can have 12 different ways to help them and police them and judge them or we can just cut everyone a check and not care.

This is too idealistic. It assumes people want to better their situation and won’t live their entire lives on UBI. Reality is that you can’t have an UBI instead of all those programs because people will have different number of dependents, some will live in San Francisco requiring significant payments just to afford an apartment, and so on.
The UBI as a fix-all-problems looks good on paper but it’s impractical in reality.

[scripta]

@harish7631

some will live in San Francisco requiring significant payments just to afford an apartment

I see your point, but there are regional adjustments at least to SNAP and SSI – the state adds a little extra to the federal benefits. UBI is not any less practical than the existing assistance programs.

[meed18]

It’s hard enough to find people to flip burgers at $13/hr now. What happens to the price of going out to eat when it pays more to stay at home than it does to work at one of those places?

[scripta]

Last I checked UBI wasn’t supposed to replace minimum wage.

[meed18]

How much is it supposed to be?

[glitch99]

@scripta

Last I checked UBI wasn’t supposed to replace minimum wage

Right, but a lot of people will figure that every dollar they get from a UBI is a dollar less they need to earn by working.

[scripta]

IIRC, most studies I’ve seen were in the $500-$1000 /mo range.

@glitch99

but a lot of people will figure that every dollar they get from a UBI is a dollar less they need to earn by working.

So they may reduce their hours. Probably a good thing, so they can pursue their dreams (even if those dreams include doing nothing).

[glitch99]

@scripta

So they may reduce their hours. Probably a good thing, so they can pursue their dreams (even if those dreams include doing nothing).

…which goes back to meed18’s comment.

[xerty]

@scripta

they may reduce their hours. Probably a good thing, so they can pursue their dreams (even if those dreams include doing nothing).

I thought the interesting part of the study outcome, even tho it was a one-time payment, was that the recipients were worse off financially (due to the windfall encouraging their poor impulse control for more spending) as well as health-wise (physically and mentally). So yes, stopping or cutting back on work at least for this cohort was a bad outcome, not a good one.

I think the issue between the UBI / welfare optimists and the pessimists is that the optimists think they would be happier if they had a bit more money, could work a bit less, etc, but they are competent enough in their personal and professional lives to be studying academic aspects of economics or politics - for them it might be true. The actual people they’re trying to help are nothing like that - if they had the dedication, self control, mental ability, etc to be philosophizing on public policy theories, they wouldn’t be 50% unemployed and living on $1500/mo of welfare. Those people react very differently and need different things, and apparently for them, it’s “more money, more problems”, something the elites don’t run into til they hit 8 figures and don’t know what to do with themselves either.

[Honkinggoose]

@scripta

That’s an unpaid job that’s more difficult than many paid jobs.

That’s not an unpaid job. That is a responsibility freely undertaken by choice.

@scripta

There’s plenty of sense of accomplishment in raising children.

Then it’s not unpaid. As well, there are millions of stay at home parents, primarily women, who will attest to the rewards of watching their children grow into responsible adults.

@scripta

I doubt that anyone doing manual or tedious work for money gets much of that sense of accomplishment.

I doubt your doubt, but will accept your doubt, for the sake of argument. Then they should be doing something that does give them a sense of accomplishment. Even if it is just a stepping stone to where they eventually want to be. Some might consider my first non-entrepreneurial job as manual or tedious. I took pride in all of the work that job entailed, though it sometimes wasn’t pleasant.

@scripta

I certainly didn’t at my first jobs in high school and college – I did them because I needed money.

Said by every hooker to every vice cop. But I’m sure you did it perfectly. Doesn’t a job well done, in and of itself, provide a sense of accomplishment?

@scripta

This is why the free payments make work less rewarding – because the low-wage work sucks, people just never have the time to stop and think about how much it sucks.

Okay Vlad.

[scripta]

@Honkinggoose

@scripta

That’s an unpaid job that’s more difficult than many paid jobs.

That’s not an unpaid job. That is a responsibility freely undertaken by choice.

It’s not much of a choice for many, given the cost of daycare.

@Honkinggoose

@scripta

I certainly didn’t at my first jobs in high school and college – I did them because I needed money.

Said by every hooker to every vice cop. But I’m sure you did it perfectly. Doesn’t a job well done, in and of itself, provide a sense of accomplishment?

No. They weren’t the kind of jobs that could be done perfectly or imperfectly, just done. I couldn’t wait to get out of there. I got more satisfaction out of doing homework.

@Honkinggoose

Okay Vlad.

Is this a Lenin reference? I don’t get it.

[jerosen]

@harish7631

It assumes people want to better their situation

I don’t assume that myself at all. I assume that there are a small % of peope are basically just lost causes. We’re alreayd paying them now via the SNAP, TANF, unemployment, etc programs.
UBI just replaces those with a simple system that also tacitly admits that some people aren’t going to contribute.

edit to add : The current social net programs do serve useful purppose for many people who have legitimate needs too. Large % of people on aid get themselves off it asap. Between stuff like TANF, unemploymetn insurance, and disability we’ve got a mix of programs which address different legitimate need cases. But theres also a % of people who abuse the system and there always will be. Thats the % who don’t “want to better their situation”.

[Honkinggoose]

@meed18

How much is it supposed to be?

Not enough, you heartless, homophobic, racist, capitalist. We need more. How much more? Just more.

[Sorry for putting responses to multiple posts in one message, but I’m trying to prevent the 3-in-a-row limit.

@jerosen

I assume that there are a small % of peope are basically just lost causes

@jerosen

Large % of people on aid get themselves off it asap.

So would you be in favor of a lifetime limit on welfare payments?

[Honkinggoose]

@scripta

It’s not much of a choice for many, given the cost of daycare.

Isn’t having children a choice? Why not? Do they not have more self control than
animals? And you ignored …

@Honkinggoose

Then it’s not unpaid. As well, there are millions of stay at home parents, primarily women, who will attest to the rewards of watching their children grow into responsible adults.

@scripta

I couldn’t wait to get out of there.

And that was your impetus for working hard at your studies to “upgrade” your work experience.

@scripta

I don’t get it.

@scripta

the free payments

They’re not free, Vlad, Robinette, Barack, senator from Vermont, foresquad, Fidel, etc.