The number of people in our local walmarts seem to have reached a high the last couple days as more and more people are out. They still do counts. With two doors open they had to be on walkey talkeys to communicate.
I haven’t been to Walmart since last week but was surprised today to see their second door closed. Yes, not good during the hight of count numbers to funnel more people into/out of one door like they did initially in March. Technology should allow them to staff and keep an accurate count with two doors open.
By they way, I used to have to wait in line before to enter with fewer people in the store. Now there are a lot more people and the line enters easily. We’ve entered a higher stage in WA state in my county but it’s not a surprise coumts are up with so many people out. Though many many more are actually wearing masks.
The more I read pieces like this, the more I’m convinced nothing will happen.
I don’t see Dems or GOP moving on retroactive blanket immunity for all. I just don’t see a middle ground they could both agree on and since both sides have stated it has to be their way or the highway on this…
At best, maybe they could compromise on direct stimulus levels. In the last stretch before a presidential election though, compromise is usually not on the table so I think all proposals will be DOA. And thus all the current “action” is just posturing for the elections.
But here I think what they’re doing is trying to define the legal line between what should be considered negligence and what is not negligent. How is negligence defined? Is it negligent to shoot your guns in the air? Or not? Is it negligent to mop a tile floor in a grocery store and leave a pool of water there for a customer to slip and fall? I think this is all stuff courts have ironed out via trial and error over decades of litigation. I think the GOP is trying to set some ground rules on lawsuits before we spend the next 10-50 years suing each other over it. AND before any business entity, schoo, charity, etc fails to do anything for fear of legal actions.
Is it negligent to open a business during a pandemic? Is it negligent to fail to eject 100% of customers for not wearing a mask 100% of the time? Is it negligent to fail send home an employee who has a cough? etc.
I found one example of previously proposed legislation discussed here :
Under the proposed legislation, federal civil action that includes negligence claims related to the pandemic would require courts to instruct the jury that “liability standard is the reasonable person standard,” which holds that individuals should be deemed negligent if they do something a “reasonably careful person” wouldn’t do in the same situation.
The bill says opening a business should lawfully be considered reasonable and that negligence can’t be found “solely on the basis” of reopening.
I can’t find an actual bill in the house from Barr that matches the discussion.
This does not sound unreasonable to me.
That is surely, absolutely NOT a blanket immunity against negligence.
That article links to this an article discussing proposed legislation from Mcconnell
Our legislation is going to create a legal safe harbor for businesses, nonprofits, governments and workers and schools who are following public health guidelines to the best of their ability,"
“To be clear now, we’re not talking about immunity from lawsuits. There will be accountability for actual gross negligence and intentional misconduct. That will continue,” he said.
“We aren’t going to provide immunity, but we are going to provide some certainty. If we want American workers to clock back in, we need employers who know if they follow the guidelines, they will not be left to drown in opportunistic litigation,”
Again that seems reasonable to me, but also I don’t find actual legislation.
I think we can take it on face value that they aren’t granting immunity for negligence. Its not reasonable or fair to presume otherwise.
IMO, that’s a big presumption, absent any actual definition of what’s reasonable (which McConnell has rejected, such as proposed OSHA standards). Agreed it’s possible, though.
Defining the rules better makes sense. Personally, not generally a fan of retroactively changing rules to solely benefit one group (and there’s no unforeseen emergency for this here – we’re 8 months past when he wants to make it retroactively to. An emergency would have been addressed much earlier.).
OSHA only affects employees. The blanket immunity is necessary to expand that to customers who choose to patronize the business and then blame the business for them getting sick.
If a business owner is standing at the door literally misting “liquid Covid” on every customer as they enter, he’s still going to be held accountable.
Again, you’re the one who introduced “negligence” to this article. Not Republicans, not Democrats, not CNN. So I’d say it’s yours that is the pretty big presumption.
You missed the first part of the quote from pelosi that I included. It makes similar assumptions. “removing All responsibility”
"
"Let’s hear what everybody has to say,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said last week. “But don’t say, ‘You all have to go back to work even if it isn’t safe. And by the way, we are removing all responsibility from the employer.’ I mean, that is just – no.”
"
That still doesnt speak to negligence. It’s responsibility for bringing employees back to work.
The objection is based on them wanting employees to be able to sue based on their own individual concept of “safe” rather than the business’s. Republicans want the employee’s individual concept of “safe” to only apply to their individual decision to return to work or quit, and not be used to hold a business hostage.
unfortunately looks like we’ll be back at or past prior peak daily deaths (2200 7-day avg, currently we’re at about ~750) in about 3 weeks (comparing the cases/deaths charts). Hopefully I’m magically wrong. That’s my prediction, though.
To me, it seems like a lot of those decisions would be made much much easier if States had clear mandates on what businesses should or should not do. If there is a mandate to wear a mask in clearly defined environments (say indoors while not consuming food), then the line in the sand on customers and employees to wear masks should be pretty obvious.
Bottom line, businesses should not be expected to be health experts and fear being sued just for following the law. If your business follows the State’s health department recommendations at the time, then you should not be found negligent. If you don’t follow State’s health and safety mandates, you should be liable regardless of actual enforcement of the recommendations/mandates by the States.
So I agree that the “reasonably careful person” standard does not sound like blanket immunity nor does it sound unreasonable to have as a standard.
I can see why the HHS has to have this data fast but why bypass the CDC and not simply send the data to both at the same time. Surely in the electronic age, in a modern nation like ours, we could handle that no?
Granted, the CDC did not cover itself in glory with handling of the pandemic, especially early on, their guidance on masks, etc. But what the heck do we have the CDC for if it’s not used to collect data on infectious disease like COVID-19? Or is this the whole point? if the WH doesn’t agree with CDC messaging,it’ll be easier to dismiss them “Oh the CDC doesn’t know what’s actually happening because they don’t have the data we got so ignore them.” Something reeks of personal vendetta and authoritarian information control about this.
As posted up thread the canned pumpkin is good, it is healthful, and it has been working out well for me as a fresh vegetable substitute. So:
Time to buy more. Right?
Not so fast. I go back to Target.com and, low and behold, NO pumpkin! Fuggetaboutid. Cannot buy it now from them.
Annoyed, I try WalMart.com. Yes, they have it but only the unnecessarily expensive organic stuff. I really do not want to pay that!
What a PITA.
Anyway, at least I received six cans of asparagus earlier today. Pleased. That should keep me in home made asparagus soup for a good long while.
Onions? I broke down and bought twenty-five pounds of Texas 1015s. Anybody have experience with these? I eat a LOT of onions and use 'em in cooking, too. Onions are healthful. Sure hope the 1015s work out.
Pandemic survival is a challenge. Still am pissed about the pumpkin.
Also asparagus in the can? That’s got to be expensive!
I grow asparagus in my yard. It’s something that really takes years to take hold. Once it’s well started, my kids & friends come over & pick (or cut). Everyone loves our early spring homegrown asparagus.
That’s where some of the issue is in determining liability at the state level vs a national level if the republicans were to get their way with the next stimulus bill. Business reopening is highly state and even county specific depending on case count per polulation and there is a huge variance in what businesses are allowed to reopen at different stages and what those local requirements are.
Determining business liability at a national level may undermine many state requirements that are more strict and allow businesses to not have to adhere to lcoal mandates because they are no longer liable on national law, though I’m not entirely sure what the case might be for states being able to claim local liability if it can get overturned at the federal supreme court based on federal laws.
I think there would have to be some compromise for the bill to pass with some give on both sides but I really don’t see either side budging.
Not straight out of the can, silly. I make pumpkin custard with non-fat evaporated milk. It is very tasty, very orange, and it is a good substitute for a vegetable. You end up with about five or six servings per can of pumpkin.
So do I. And it makes great soup. However it’s a spring crop, we are now in summer, and I like home made asparagus soup a lot. So am restocking the larder. The stuff I bought is Green Giant brand and I think it will be quite tasty.
Conceded. This entire pandemic is VERY costly . . . for everyone and in manifold ways. I’m making enough with my side hustle to pay the extra cost so far. My cost at this point is only measurable in dollars. I go into a grocery store and I could end up paying a MUCH higher price not in dollars, but another way: I could contract the virus.
