both are really and suffer from NIMBY. I worked in West TX for a while and the joke was what’s that black stuff in the air… Money!
I agree with this, wholly. I have no problem with price gouging. The complainers are ill-prepared [your lack of preperation …]
My entire point was that both the Warren’s and the non-high-cheek-boneheads are happy to jump on big oil and anyone else not contributing to their campaign as:
Gougers
Scrooges
Anti-American
Killing the economy
Causing inflation
Taking money out of blah blah
Blah, Blah, Blah.
However, I can’t figure out why they haven’t jumped on the new car price bandwagon. It’s not like they have a big lobby contributing to the Clinton Library and Massage Parlor. At least, I don’t think they do.
Because their core constituency is riding public transportation, not buying new cars? And unlike big oil with their billions of annual profits, car manufacturers have been known to flirt with bankruptcy - the optics arent nearly as good to beat them up when there are so many much more obvious targets. And there is a big lobby involved, which is why the whole dealer-based sales model has remained intact.
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Well I think you mostly want to build refineries where the oil is right? So makes sense the refineries are in TX and Alaska more than not. Also when you’ve got a lot of oil and a large oil industry then you’re more likely to be supportive of the oil industry because your jobs are at stake.
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Since Covid-19 has been de-masked, it appears used car prices are heading down from their Covid assisted orbit.
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And how long before we hear about the need to bail out the used car sellers, who had purchased their cars at those orbital prices? If we’re using the logic that the $50k student loan wasnt worth the education it paid for and thus should be forgiven, surely that same logic also applies to those who used a $30k loan to buy a car that turns out to only be worth $15k.
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happened with homes, so why not 
? I did sell my 2010 highlander with two accidents 160K miles for $9k. Dealer flipped it for $12.5K a month later!
New Nisan Leaf = $33,000 - $10000 incentive/rbate = $23,000
Used Nissan Leaf 2020-2022 years = $29,000+
=== buy and sell = $6000+ profit??
Right now a Nissan Leaf can be had for around $33k new at a dealer. THe fed + state tax incentives here are $7500 + 2500 for $10k off. Thats $23k out of pocket cash. If you can get one, availability is tight. Used Nissan leafs 2020 and newer are listed for $29k and up.
Seems to me you could buy a new leaf for $23k after incentives and sell it for $29k.
Do we know why people would pay $29k for a used car that is 23k out of pocket new? Is it just availability and that some people can’t get the full fed tax credit?
How do I know that the prices I see listed for used cars are what people are actually paying? I mean you could have one or two sellers listing silly high prices in an ad but that doesn’t mean anyone pays $29k for it. Or is there another way to find actual average sales prices for used cars?
This may all be a moot point if you can’t get one and maybe any car heading to a lot is spoken for. But I do see one dealer with 12 Leafs arriving in transit and Nissan website makes it look like they’re not already sold. Course I don’t trust car dealers more than I can personally physcially throw their biggest SUV.
Any other reasons why you can’t buy such a new car and flip ot for a profit?
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New car lots are empty. The reason you see that price differential is because you have to order and wait for your car to be manufactured. The used models are available immediately.
Add on top of that, many dealers are adding market adjustments to the MSRP. Frankly I wish that this was the straw that would break the camel’s back and begin the dismantling of the dealer network. Tesla is a terrible company, but their direct to consumer model is the future.
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Yeah I know the lots are empty and I think you’re probably nailed the main reason.
Its just that I see 12 cars due in transit and the Nissan site makes it look like they’re available. But maybe thres 50 people waiting in line to get em that I don’ tknow about.
I’m assuming generally that its not that easy to just buy a new car and flip it for thousands or everyone would do it.
Does this include sales tax / registration? In CA that’s another ~$2500, making the spread much lower. And it’s not as “out of pocket” as you say – if you buy right now, you have to wait for a year to get that tax credit. Still a pretty good play though.
The funny thing about this is, the sort of people that would drive a Nissan Leaf are not the sort of people that would be able to get the full benefit of a $10k non-refundable tax credit. If I were single with no kids with an AGI of $77,000, I wouldn’t drive a Leaf. If I were married with no kids with with an AGI of $109,000, I also wouldn’t drive a Leaf. The only people this makes sense for are people that are obsessed with EVs, but only cheap ones, or parents about to become empty nesters that want to spoil their high school graduate with a new car.
I wonder how many people are buying these cars factoring that tax credit in and then actually getting half of it when they files their taxes.
Either way, I find it important to point out every time this topic comes up, that the EV tax credit is one of the most REGRESSIVE tax schemes ever devised. (And the Republicans are shitty at politics for doing such a poor job broadcasting that fact. They would have an even better stranglehold on the working class voter if they hammered it more. But, I wouldn’t be surprised if a ton of them voted for it back when it was put into the tax law. Otherwise, I can’t imagine how it hasn’t expired at this point.) I also wonder how much less successful Tesla and Musk would have been without it.
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I know a couple with kids and high AGI who had a Leaf, and this thread got me thinking about it again. The only reason I wouldn’t have wanted to drive it before was because it was so damn ugly, but the newer models don’t look too bad. One of our short commute cars is getting old, and EV or PHEV makes sense, especially if I could resell it at a profit 
.
I was about to say that a Leaf could make sense for a family with $113+ AGI, but then I thought of how small a Leaf is and figured it wasn’t in consideration for families unless they are EV obsessed. For the couple you are talking about, if they aren’t EV obsessed, I would assume at least one of the following has to be true: both kids (no way they have 3+) are above the age of car seats, the parents are extremely short, the parent that drives the Leaf never transports the kids, or the Leaf is their 3rd car.
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No sales tax in Oregon. Registration isn’t much.
Honestly I think you’ve got that exactly oppposite.
I live in Portland Oregon metro. Theres lots of Leafs around here. Mostly higher income people who can overpriced electric cars AND benefit from the tax credit. More often lower income people don’t buy them because as you say they cant get the tax credit.
Several of my neighbors have Leafs and several of my coworkers do. All at 6 figure incomes.
There are a lot of people who drive cheaper cars yet have >100k incomes. Also driving a Leaf is more abut the ‘green’ nature of the car. You can fit kids in a Leaf. It has 4 seats. So its not as if its totally impossible to do with a family of 4.
Most families are 2 car families so the Leaf may be a commuter car for one spouse and then they have a 2nd larger car too.
Theres also lots of DINKs around Plus retirees, etc.
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yes
Making it a non refundable income tax credit is just making it a tax break for higher income people.
OR tax is a rebate at least so it works for everyone. The fed should just be a rebate too not a tax credit… Or just make it refundable tax credit.
you are talking about Portlandia, so you clearly missed where I said this:
I would bet you money that if they didn’t have a Leaf, they would have a different EV and not a more common car that someone in their income range (that doesn’t live in a deep blue enclave) normally buys. Not sure why they chose the Leaf over one of the other EVs on the market though. That part of their decision I won’t try to explain because I have no idea.
Or just don’t give money to people that can afford new cars while giving nothing to people that can’t, or realize it’s not a financially wise decision for them to buy a new car. Crazy, I know.
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Yes I did miss that before I replied.
And yes your’e also right that many of the people around here are buying Teslas etc, now more than Leaf in the higher income zip code.
I do still see people driving very small cars who I know can afford bigger. My neighbor has a Fiat 500 for some reason. But they are DINKs.
Also even though people may be higher income some are still fairly frugal and might drive cheaper Leaf because (like me) they can’t quite stomach paying 2-5X as much for different , much better electric car.
Theres lots of tax breaks that really aren’t necessary or some people dislike.
But yes not giving out ‘new car’ tax breaks at all is also an option.
SOOOOOO ugly. Whoever designed those headlights commited a crime against humanity.
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Unfortunately limiting it to new cars is really the only feasible option… If they would allow a credit on used EVs, you know there would instantly be a buy/sell/swap thread here, call it “Manufactured Car Buying” 
This guy might be full of it. And he clearly stands to profit by saying something that will give him followers that could translate into paid subscribers. But he also might be right.
https://twitter.com/GuyDealership/status/1603794722140688384
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