Did you not read the 3rd sentence beyond the one you quoted?
I’m a car guy. I get it. I have heard the economic case for having a car membership (we pay a lot of money for something that just sits unused), but it falls on deaf ears to me. There is something about car ownership and the ability to jump in your car (or your choice of car if you own multiple) and just drive that will never be satisfied with a membership where the car is actually being used most of its life. It has become part of our culture and a rite of passage when you hit a certain age. I don’t think car ownership is going anywhere. I only brought it up because this thread is about what could happen in the future. What I described is something that some people would like to implement and no one had mentioned it in the thread yet, so I figured I’d bring it up. But I wasn’t advocating for it (or against it). I did make my prediction though, which is in line with what you envision.
Tell me how that happens, exactly. Because I feel like I’m missing out on some amazing deal here. The only way I can think this could happen is in the form of equity in the car. But I’m pretty sure that the price of used EVs already accounts for the subsidy, and does not suddenly jump up when that subsidy expires
Plus the more expensive cars depreciate quicker, so the owner could never realize that gain.
What I’m saying is the only way for that $7500 or $10000 credit to get to the consumer is if the consumer buys a $70K car for $60K and then sells it for > $60K. And he’d have to do that just before the credit expires, otherwise nobody would pay him more than they would pay directly to the factory. And this wouldn’t be possible in many places where taxes & registration kill the deal. What am I missing?
Because you’re getting a car you otherwise couldnt afford/wouldnt pay for.
A subsidy that bridges the gap between what manufacturers can charge and what consumers can pay is mutually beneficial. It helps the manufacturer make a profit off a car that otherwise costs way too much to produce, and it gets the consumer a car for a more palatable price tag.
No, the price of the car does not account for the tax credit. It is literally a tax credit that you file for with your taxes. If your purchase qualifies for a $7,500 tax credit, but you didn’t make enough money in the year you bought the car to have a tax of $7,500 or more, you don’t get the full credit. So even if a middle class single person making the median income of $37k/yr could afford one of these cars, his $7,500 tax credit would only net him $4,246. Sorry buddy, you’re too poor to get the full tax credit for your “green” behavior.
When the tax credits ran out for Tesla, they didn’t lower the prices of their cars to account for the fact that buyers couldn’t get the credits anymore. Chevy may have lowered some prices, but that would have been just as much because the cars weren’t as popular, not only because of the expired credits.
You’ve overthinking this because you generally disagree with me.
Generally speaking, buyers of EVs and plug-in hybrids are people in the upper middle class and above. The US government and some state governments gave those people money for buying something that most people in lower socioeconomic levels can’t afford. They did this in the name of saving the planet. The tax policies behind these credits, by definition, value the “green” agenda more than the income inequality agenda. There really is no other way to slice it.
It’s okay to agree with me once and a while. You may care WAY more than me about “green” policies, but neither of us like regressive tax policies. This is a green policy that is also regressive. It’s easy for me to hate. You, on the other hand, have to pick which one is more important. Being green, or being fiscally progressive. I don’t envy that decision. Glad I don’t have to do it. But if I were you, I would dislike this policy. Mostly because there really isn’t that much evidence that EVs and Plug-in Hybrids are doing that much to save the planet. Are you really getting much in the way of stopping climate change for all those $7,500 refunds that upper middle class taxpayers received?
I thought it was a refundable tax credit, meaning you get the full amount. I’m starting to see your point.
You can go back through my posts – I was not disagreeing with you, I was trying to learn and figure out what I missed. I think you just helped me figure it out, and I thank you!
My bad. Just 2 threads in a row had me thinking it was more often than not. Clearly two disagreements in close proximity biased my memory if that’s not the case. Sorry for the incorrect assumption.
I think that underlines the core point I had been trying to make. Today, people think of the EV’s battery as being part of their car’s engine. But it’s really just the fuel. And fuel is a commodity. EV batteries also becoming a commodity will be the catalyst for widespread EV acceptance.
Plus the fact that batteries go bad. I don’t particularly like EVs, but I’m here so I like saving money. In my work parking garage (in which parking costs are subsidized by my employer), there are two EV charging spots that are usually unused. They are free (because the garage costs money). I looked into the cheapest EV on the market figuring I might be able to save enough on gas by only charging at the free spot that it would pay for the car over only a few years. The cheapest EV on the market right now is a used Nissan Leaf. I quickly found that all the cheap old ones have a range that is often close to 1/4 or 1/3 of their range when new. And replacing the battery in an old Leaf is cost prohibitive. No wonder they are so cheap, huh? I quickly scratched that idea. You can get a decent used commuter car for a few thousand bucks. Not so with EVs yet.
Yeah Nissan really dropped the ball on the leaf’s BMS. At 165k miles, my Model S is down about 11% from new. I still get 200 real-world miles on a 90% charge.
I drove my 120 mile round-trip to work yesterday, got home just in time to bring my 8 y/o to hockey practice (40mi round-trip). Pulled in with enough range to do the 40mi r/t again if necessary. I drove for 4 hours yesterday without stopping to charge or even worrying what my charge level was. I don’t even have one of those newer 300m+ range cars. It’s a psychological issue for people that have never driven a BEV, not for actual owners.
And if for whatever reason it didnt get charged overnight, you’re suddenly stuck taking half a day off work… Again, it’s not about the maximum range at full charge, it’s the logistics of keeping it charged.
Of course it’s not an issue for actual owners - people with these actual (not psychological) issues dont buy BEVs in the first place. Very few, if any, say “I have no idea how I’m going to be able to keep it charged, but I’m going to go all in anyways and just hope that it somehow works out!”
Are you referencing the battery monitoring system? Is there something that the leaf’s BMS doesn’t do that Tesla’s does do. I figured it was just inferior and cheaper technology in general. The nice thing about the leaf is that the battery meter on the dash actually shows the battery degrading over time so a used car shopper can see that the absolute max range the car can get and what fraction of the original battery is actually useable anymore.
I haven’t done enough research on all the EVs out there, but since I am only interested in good used car deals, all I can say is that I am disappointed in the 4-8 year old EVs. They were just poorly designed from a mechanical repair standpoint. It shouldn’t be cost prohibitive to keep get a 6 year old EV’s battery capacity back to its original level. EVs will have a hard time competing with traditional cars if there isn’t a normal used market for them beyond 5 years.
I don’t know a lot about the newer leafs, but my understanding is leafs are not liquid cooled and it takes a huge toll on the cells especially in hot climates.
The headline/retail prices for battery replacements are kind of ridiculous, but salvage parts prices aren’t terrible. I could probably swap my 165k old 85 pack for an essentially unused 100 pack for 10-15k and it would be a significant range upgrade over my original one even when it was new. I’ve got another 2 years on the battery warranty before I even consider that though, at which point I’ll have about 250k miles on the car. Prices for salvage packs will continue to drop.
As a professional in the IT field I’m much more at ease working on electronics than mechanicals. That said, none of it is voodoo. It’s just a car with a kind of weird powerplant.
Or spend 30 minutes at the supercharger that’s right on the way…
This has actually happened to me twice in 6 years. Of the careless things I do that make me 30 minutes late for work it’s one of the least frequent.
I don’t disagree on the fact that charging an EV nightly would be an inconvenience for many people. I just don’t think it’s the majority like you seem to. I’m already an edge case due to the long commute and no access to charge at work. I’d venture that 90% of car owners would not have a problem charging on a daily basis. Worry about the other 10% later.
Or, preferably, just price the externalities into the price of gasoline and let the free market take care of it.
But you are actually responsible. . So many people constantly run close to empty as it is.
It’d be a hassle, but I know I could make due with an electric car. And any problems would most likely be nuisances rather than disasters. If there was a tangible benefit, I’d have one right now (if I’ll stand in Walmart for hours just to make a few extra bucks, I’m obviously willing to deal with some hassle when there’s something to gain). I’m sure that most people could make it work one way or another if they absolutely had to. But if you give all the naysayers a free EV for a month, I’d bet anything that when that month is up most of them would choose to go back to what they already had. Even if keeping the EV was cost competitive with their preferred option. Existing technology hasnt reached the point where it is ready to replace what’s tried and true.
You mention manipulating the cost of gasoline to “convince” people to switch, and yes, that would also work to some extent. But I consider broad acceptance to be people voluntarily chosing the electric option, not them being forced into it. Thus my perspective is from selling the EVs to willing consumers, not rigging the market so that EVs are the only remaining reasonable option. You could ban gasoline tomorrow and force everyone to go electric, and life would go on. But that’d be an entirely different conversation.
The oil companies are not the only ones that benefit from petroleum and other fuel extraction.
Consumers do. After all 98% of them choose to drive gasoline or diesel powered vehicles.
Do you use electric power? 60% of that is fueled by natural gas or coal. Do you buy plastic products? All plastic comes from oil. Do you fly in airplanes for vacations or business? All airplanes are powered by oil based fuels.
If the world stops extracting oil there would be no fuel to charge up the batteries on electric cars. Would you suggest that we stop extracting oil to “save the environment”
Accurately reflecting the damage caused by, and the true cost of obtaining/securing our supply is what I’m suggesting. This is not in the least bit “rigging”. I’m tired of my tax dollars being spent rolling troops in the Middle East so we can have $2/gal gas. Also the human cost of lives lost etc
The amount of wealth transferred to the Middle East on an annual basis is eye watering and completely unnecessary.
The amount of wealth transferred to the Middle East on an annual basis is eye watering and completely unnecessary.
Actually a lot of that ended with President Trump’s support of fracking and other extraction methods. The US became oil energy independent during the Trump Administration. Now the Democrats are undoing that and we’re going back to depending on the unreliable Middle East sources.
Every barrel of oil that doesn’t go through the Keystone XL pipeline has to come from the Middle East or Venezuela or Russia or other unsavory places. Or be shipped by railroad car, which is much more expensive and dangerous to the environment. The first thing Biden did was to cancel the Keystone XL.
Climate change ya know.
Edit: “completely unnecessary” what would you suggest the United States do for oil?
. So many people constantly run close to empty as it is.