Minimizing financial impacts of being put in police custody?

Not exactly the same, see this case I linked earlier.

Despite my aversion to giving them views, I checked out the article and can’t figure out if your trying to be obstinate, obtuse, or funny. Remotely, I may be one those. :smile:

How is this different than a pin/password? As a reminder,

ETA: On the near impossibility of an error, I’ll admit that I may not have read the article as @scripta read it, and am open to hearing his interpretation of what I didn’t or did read. :smile: Again, it hasn’t happened yet, but I may have missed something.

Ditto. In fact this entire discussion is, to me, remarkable . . . in that I’m completely unable to relate.

Thirty years ago, here where I live, I would see a police officer drive through perhaps every three or four years. We have no local police here at all. I’m writing about State Police.

Anyway, today? Well that was then and this is now. I have not seen any police presence here in the last ten years at least . . . . longer than that quite honestly. I guess State Police budgets have shrunk in these more recent years. Anyway:

The notion of actually being detained by police, given virtually zero police presence exists in the first place, is foreign. How would they accomplish that?

Crime? It does exist here I’m pretty sure. Nothing serious, of course. But it is good to know that, should you need a police officer, the nearest one is only a half hour away. But you have to call.

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That’s because that “talk” is often the opposite of the talk you received. That the cops are out to get you, do pull you over for no reason, and wont hesitate to shoot you just because they feel like it; basically that they are the enemy. And then everyone wonders why the problems perpetuate.

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Not enough fathers around to give it?

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These aren’t 5th amendment issues. They are 4th amendment search and seizure issues. The SCOTUS has determined that cops need a warrant to search your phone. Once they have a valid warrant, however they choose to unlock the phone is up to them. They can ask a judge for a court order to use your biometrics if that’s what they want to do, but that’s just a formality at that point because they can still brute force their way into your electronics as long as they have the search warrant. It’s no different than reaching in the pocket for your keys to search your house if they have a search warrant.

Face lock is literally the worst type of biometric lock. I wasn’t aware anyone that cared about security used that method. I was talking about fingerprint or eye scan. It’s difficult to get into a phone those ways when the owner is refusing to comply. I suppose it’s easier to hold their eye open or grab their finger and hold them still than beating their PIN out of them. But with all three we’re talking about cops physically assaulting you to get into your phone. They would be viewed by our courts as illegal. If you’re dealing with cops willing to hold your eye open to get into your phone before going to a court, you’ve got bigger issues than worrying about what they will find on your phone.

But once again, I remind you, I wasn’t trying to speak to the extreme situations that most people will never ever experience. I was speaking to the common situations - you need a number out of your phone or the cops are trying to get a hold of your wife so your kid doesn’t go to CPS. You’re better off having a fingerprint unlock than telling the cops your PIN. I’m sure you both can understand why I’m saying that.

Agreed. If you’re the target and you’re in an interrogation room - don’t talk without a lawyer.

If you’re not in an interrogation room, and if you know the crime is not a felony, you’ve got a decision to make.

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I worked in a city, in a high crime area, where all the schools were title 1 schools (officially poor). The vast majority of my one-on-one interactions with black youth were fine, especially on the side of the road. The ones that went sideways were ones where there was a group of people or friends around and those others weren’t involved in the stop. I have deduced that in those situations, the suspect often felt like he or she had to put on some sort of a show for the onlookers that the cops couldn’t push him around or else they’ll lose face. I’ve read some articles about this. If I recall, they were about “honor culture” and essentially claims that non-poor whites, moreso non-southern non-poor whites, have moved past this culture, but blacks, poor whites, and southerners are still hanging on to it. Search honor culture and crime and you’ll probably find various writings on it. It also explains why the parents of the kids I dealt with often took the side of their kids when they got in trouble.

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This. Be polite, not belligerent. Don’t do anything that could be interpreted as threatening. It’s not race that matters, it’s attitude.

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And with said warrant, you still cannot get into the phone/computer unless the suspect gives you the PIN (or via brute force hacking I guess).

Suspect may have to decide whether it’s worth ignoring a court order to reveal their PIN but at least they have a choice to give access. But yes that’d be reserved for extreme cases.

On the flip side, I hear you that giving out your PIN would allow the cops to get into your phone as many times as they’d like which may not be desirable.

I could see other cases where biometric unlocks may be better.Say you’re unconscious after an accident, getting into your phone may allow cops/medics to contact next of kin quickly. But I’m still not comfortable with biometric unlocks especially on password managers. Hopefully I never run into an issue where having it setup would have been beneficial.

Here’s the exact quote you missed:

In other words you may forget or simply refuse to reveal information stored in your brain (PIN/password), but you may not refuse to reveal your face, fingerprint, voice recording, blood sample, or DNA.

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[Thanks for taking the time to find my error.]

Holy #(^&*@!

I don’t think that court’s interpretation is correct. If it were, prosecutors/police could also compel you (or lock you up) to provide your password. The last I heard, that required a judge sign-off.

If the above situation revealed sufficiently heinous evidence (child porn, snuff film, etc.) on your phone (and was not an Iphone), you could probably get the ACLU to help appeal. :slight_smile:

I agree and hope it is appealed and reversed. Showing your face in a line up is not the same as showing your face to unlock a private safe against your will. But until then, caveat emptor.

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give you 200 to 1 odds that your contrived situation happens vs such a lie backfiring when the cops figure out you lied.

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Where do you all live?

I grew up in Spokane Wa where the population is mostly white. Close friend of mine was 3/4 Native American and distinctly not white. After college he moved down to Georgia for some girl. He saw a very distinct and severely different way in which the police treated him in GA versus Spokane. HE was pulled over by police frequently for seemingly no reason in GA and that did not happen in Spokane.
I know personally more than one black person who lived in GA who also recounted being pulled over by police very frequently. Like weekly or maybe monthly. For apparenlty no reason.

Friend of mine was arrested and booked for domestic assault. (here in Oregon) Cause he defended himself against his knife wielding wacko wife. He was able to bail him self out of jail using his own credit card.
meed18 said above that rules and procedures on that kinda thing differ depending where you live and this is pretty important point.

I have not been to jail myself. I’ve been pulled over by cops several times myself. (bothin WA and OR) Usually for good reason and almost always the cops were reasonable. I’m white and very agreeable with authority. I have had at least one or two instances where cops were kinda jerks for no reason assuming I’d done something I hadn’t and using bs reason to pull me over. I was cited once for drinking in college and cited and let go. Those cops were OK but I was guilty so. Another time campus cops pulled me over for alleged DUI cause I had the lights off accidentally in my friends car, and those cops were just d-bags.

In my experience, it’s usually based on the locality - how much police personnel do they have, how are they instructed to patrol, and what sort of crime does the area have. There are other factors too - what time your friends are regularly out driving? It’s also been studied several times and no one likes to admit it, but in every study, minorities are more likely to commit traffic violations than white people - that goes for things the driver has complete control of (speeding, running stop signs, not signaling) AND things that are more socioeconomic and cultural (headlight out, failed inspection, illegal modifications). Also, a lot of times people think they were “pulled over for nothing” if it wasn’t speeding and they weren’t ticketed. The motor vehicle code is almost as thick as the bible. The are lots of things to pull people over for besides speeding.

In my experience with city cops or localities that have enough cops to “harass” regular motorists, the sort of things that would make black people feel like they are being targeted are usually completely legitimate police tactics: Flood an area with the largest percentage of crime with officers. Tell them to make arrests. What that means in practice is that the poorest area and the middle class areas adjacent to it are going to be flooded - that means that blacks are going to be stopped in even higher proportion than just “who commits the most infractions.” Stop cars, especially cars occupied by multiple people at night for anything that you can legally write a ticket for. Run the IDs of everyone in the car - if anyone has warrants, you’ve got you arrest. If the driver has a warrant, you also have the ability to search the car. If no warrants, you try an find another piece of probable cause to search the car - because you don’t care about writing the ticket, you only want the arrest. If you get consent to search or find a reason that isn’t a crime itself, but then your search turns up nothing, you don’t want to write the ticket because you’ve essentially just harassed the dude(s) legally. So they often leave thinking the police had no reason to stop them and they just got harrassed illegally.

Edit: And judges don’t much care for police officers that write “fix-it” tickets when the drivers are decent motorists and citizens. I almost never wrote fix-it tickets ever. When I went to court, I usually had something serious. The judges learned the officers. Two times I went in with an expired registration ticket. I remember them because it was so rare. Both times the judge asked me about the attitude of the driver, and I’m convinced it was because he never saw me bring that infraction in front of him. I had a story for him both times. One time I told him that that the driver argued with me on the side of the road for 20 minutes refusing to sign the ticket until my supervisor arrived. The other time I told him that the driver asked for a break even though her registration was 8 months expired. Both of them were found guilty and got the standard fine instead of being dismissed for coming to court with an updated registration (what he usually did)

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meed18 yes and thanks for your input. I agree that all of that is a factor for certain.

Plus in my friends case he did move from a place that is less racist than average to a place that is much more racist than average. I don’t think we should kid ourselves and deny thats a factor at least sometimes with some cops.

I think the area in GA also derived a LOT of its revenue from traffic tickets and the police were probably pushed to get more ticket $$. Thats undoubedly a factor too.

but I would also add that the people I know pulled over for “no reason” didn’t end up with tickets from it and I a have also been pulled over for “no reason” which is sometimes a valid reason and sometimes an excuse. Yes I’m sure almost anyone can be pulled over by a cop most of the time for something but a cop can also just find a reason that is / isn’t legit. Once I was pulled over for “swerving” because … there was a pothole. I could give the cop the benefit of the doubt that he didn’ tknow there was a pot hole or I could assume he was just creating an excuse.
However at least oen person stated explciitly that cops actually never cited a resaon for pulling them over so “no reason” is literate.

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I guess my point is more to the OP that “where do you live” is a big factor in general.

Shinobi lives in rural NE 10 miles past middle of nowhere and he’s in zero risk of seeing negative impact from police custody generally.
vs
Some of us live in big cities where there is a lot more people and a lot more police dept. presence. Then depending on the specifics there is varying risks w/ the police.

Of course simply being pulled over by cops for no reason s little risk for most of us almost all the time.
It will vary based on circumstance. Little old white ladies face lower risk of police custody… etc.

Also our own actions matter hugely. If your compliant with cops thats a huge factor. OTOH simple msitaken identity is hard to control for no matter.

Regarding ‘no reason’ stops, I’ve encountered this once. I was pulled over because my car matched the description of a car they were looking for. I’m not sure who/what they were looking for because the stop lasted all of 30 seconds. Presumably just long enough to run my plates. I don’t think the officer even asked for my DL.

My car isn’t terribly common, so justifiable I guess.

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Before I was a cop, I got pulled over sometime after midnight driving on a 4 lane highway in my convertible. Actually, I didn’t get pulled over. I was being followed by a police car that I assumed was out hunting for drunk drivers. I had a few drinks that night, so I was understandably nervous. But I wasn’t drunk and was confident of that. Since I was driving with the top down and wasn’t in a hurry, I was actually driving the speed limit even before he pulled up behind me. I got tired of him following me and pulled into a 7-11. As I parked in the spot, he turned on his lights. This is what some cops do if they were looking for a good reason to stop a car, but all they had was a bad reason, but they don’t want the stop not to happen. He walked up to my car, said he saw me “swerving within my lane” and asked what I was doing. I said I was tired and was stopping for a cup of coffee. That was essentially all the investigation he needed to realize I wasn’t a good DUI arrest, so he said, “Ok. Drive Safely,” and left.

So you are absolutely right that cops will indeed pull people over for “no reason” if they are looking for something. This all happened before I was a cop, but what I found out after I became a cop was that cops take a HUGE risk when they stop people for those sort of reasons. It depends on the judges in their jurisdiction and how willing people are to fight the probable cause for the stop. The judges I had didn’t like cops that brought them those stops. I could see how some judges, especially those in rural Georgia, might not have any problem with “swerving inside a lane” as probably cause for a traffic stop though.

While I definitely acknowledge the difference between the culture in Spokane vs Georgia, I think a more important racial distinction is, did the cops in GA treat your friend differently than they treated the white people they dealt with? The fact that the cops in GA treated him differently than the cops in WA definitely says something, but it likely says more about the difference between the police culture and community priorities in those localities in GA vs WA than it does about the level of racism in each place.

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There’s a better solution to this. I’ve got an icon on the lock screen that works and brings up a link (would have to be typed manually) that brings up everything the ER doc would want to know.

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